by
Joseph Peters
| Feb 02, 2023
Speaker 2:
Welcome to The Voice of Counseling from the American Counseling Association. Today we're going to listen in on the important conversation on Black mental health and wellness featuring Dr. Rheeda Walker, who is the author of the Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health, and ACA's current president, Dr. Kimberly Frazier.
Speaker 2:
Dr. Rheeda Walker earned her PhD in clinical psychology from Florida State University. She is a tenured full-time professor at the University of Houston and a Licensed Clinical Psychologist. Dr. Walker is an elected fellow in the American Psychology Association for outstanding contributions in the field of psychology, particularly in ethnic minority issues. Dr. Walker's research interests include Black and African-American mental health, psychological correlates of suicide, race-related stress and discrimination, religiosity, spirituality, and culturally-informed coping.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
Hi, Dr. Walker. It's so good to have you on today. How are you doing today? What's going on?
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
I'm good, and I am happy to be here with you for this important conversation.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
Very important conversation. Before we get into the actual interview, is there anything you'd like to share with the audience about your current projects or what you're working on?
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Well, I think it's maybe helpful to maybe even share with the audience a little bit about my background. That is someone who is a first generation college student who happened to be blessed to earn a PhD in a research-intensive doctoral program, in clinical psychology. And what has been important to me is really merging my personal experience and who I am as an African-American woman with the research that I've had an opportunity to not just learn, but to be able to produce some of myself. And so I think that shapes a lot of my perspective, and maybe we'll hear that come through in our conversation today. And I will also say that my workbook that goes along with the Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health that came out in 2020. That that workbook is available for pre-order and will be out next year.
Speaker 2:
Okay. Thank you for sharing. I'm sure many people will want that workbook. So let's just jump in here. Reading your book, you talked about psychological fortitude. Your book about the Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health. And I wanted to get a more expanded explanation about, what is psychological fortitude and why is it important?
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Yes. I'm really glad that we get to start there because it's just so important to me that we as mental health providers, as you know, meet people where they are. So we could say to our clients, "Oh, you need to do this or try that," but if that's not what they're ready for, it's not going to be effective. And so the idea of psychological fortitude came to me as I was writing the first book and recognizing that a lot of people associate mental health with being crazy. And nobody has time to be crazy. Nobody wants any part of that. But what we do need is the capacity to be able to manage our emotions, especially when people come for us. We want to be able to manage our emotions, to take care of our work responsibilities and our school responsibilities if we have them, to take care of our families, to take care of ourselves. I know for a lot of folks that's challenging, but we have to take care of ourselves.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
To be able to take care of our physical health included in that. To be able to manage whatever it is our purpose in life that we are put on this planet to do. And to balance the threats against all of those things. So psychological fortitude is the zero to 10 rating, and zero being no capacity to do any of that. And 10 is I'm knocking it out the park. I'm cooking with grease. That's what the 10 is. And when we're able to come up with that zero to 10, really very basic rating, we don't have to worry about when someone says, "Well, how are you doing?" And we say, "I'm feeling fine. I'm okay." Those things that people just say that are just really very casual but don't say anything about how we're actually doing.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
And so when we're able to give a zero to 10 rating, it allows, one, ourselves and for other people to know how we're really doing. And it's important to me because it's simple. Again, meeting people where they are. And I like to share this example. Near the beginning of the pandemic I got some bad food and I wasn't feeling well. And my son happened to be at home with me. He was about nine at the time. And he came bopping down the stairs taking one of his video game breaks. And y'all know if you have people who plays video games, Lord, have mercy. But he was taking a video game break and he saw me looking not so good. And he said, "Mom, are you okay?" And I said, "I'm fine." And I was not at all fine. And because he has two parents who are psychologists, he said, "On a zero to 10 scale, how are you feeling?" And for a moment I actually forgot that I had probably food poisoning because I was like, "Did my child just ask me for a rating?"
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
Right.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
And so I said to him, it was something like a five or six. And so he at that point had to make a decision because he knew, "Hm, five or six, that doesn't sound good." And so developmentally, what was developmentally appropriate for him, he said, "Well, can I get you some water?" And I said, "Yes, that would be nice." And that's something, you don't have to be super sophisticated. We as adults can ask someone for a rating. They tell us what it is. And we decide, "Okay, maybe I can sit with them for a little while. Maybe I can distract them from whatever it is that's going on. Maybe I need to circle back tomorrow if it's too low."
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
But that's something that we can easily do without talking about mental health, without talking about being crazy, and certainly not talking about having a nervous breakdown, because for a lot of people, that's when they decide they're not okay. It's like, "Am I having a nervous breakdown? No? Okay. I'm okay." But there's a lot, as you know, in between the nervous breakdown and everything else.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
Well, I think you bring up a great point about, there's a lot in between. So I wanted to ask the next question about, in the in between, how do you know that either you need to build your psychological fortitude or that there's something else that you need to be doing with the psychological fortitude?
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Yes. So again, with this zero to 10 rating, at the point when you're like a six and below, then one of two things, and maybe even two things need to happen. One in the domain of removing some of the stressors. Maybe putting some boundaries in place. Saying no to something. Doing the removal of the bad things process. And then the second domain is adding good things. There are so many of us who just are working around the clock and to the bone that we forget the things that we enjoy. And it doesn't have to be super fancy. It might be, I'm just going to sit outside for a little while when I drink my coffee. Or it can be, I'm going to call and check on someone else that I love talking to and laughing with but that I haven't talked to in a while.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
So it's usually one of two things. And I would say probably in that five to six-ish zone that is removing good things, adding good things... I'm sorry. Removing bad things and adding good things. But then once you're getting to be below a four, that's probably when folks may need to be checking in with some mental health professional. And I know that oftentimes folks will ask the question, "Well, do you think I need to see someone?" Well, guess what? That's part of what mental health professionals do. We actually assess and give feedback. I love that everyday people are trying to figure out for themselves, do I need to see someone? But guess what? We can help figure that out. And so those are the kinds of things that need to happen really with a basic zero to 10 rating that clearly even a nine year old can do.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
Right. I think it's so great that you have the zero to 10 rating because everybody can do that, and people can really get behind that. Whether you're a mental health professional or not, you can give a specific rating. I think it's great that you talk about taking bad things out and putting good things in because I think so many times we focus on, well, let me eliminate the things that are causing stress. But we don't focus on, what are some things that we can put in to really enjoy what we're doing and enjoy the purpose that we're guided towards? So I love that. How does spirituality fit into that? Because I know that spirituality is really big in the African-American community. We talk about it all the time. But I think specifically when you're talking about psychological fortitude, spirituality should be important. So what is it, and why is it important when you talk about that?
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Well, people define spirituality differently. And for me, I always connect it to the individual having a sense of connection to something greater than them. To a divine, to a god. However they define that divinity. Religion incidentally happens to be how people sometimes manifest their spirituality. So maybe they go to a church or they go to a synagogue. They go to different places in order to connect with that higher power. But I do think that spirituality is something... not I think, but I know spirituality is important, especially in the Black community, because of just the legacy that we brought with us from West Africa to be able to survive.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
And so spirituality is, in a lot of ways, connected with survival. Like, "I can get through this because God is on my side. God will protect me." And I know that increasingly we're living in a society where people are in fact less religious, including African-Americans are less religious, but are still connected to, "I'm going to go and pray about this," whether I'm religiously connected or not, because that spirituality is a source of strength. And sometimes folks have to figure out how to get reconnected to that spirituality so that they can make it make sense for them. But I think it's a resource that is, in a lot of ways, inherent in the community. It's just part of who we are.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
We talk a lot about that in counseling, about really checking in with our clients' spirituality. And saying it in the terms of spirituality, maybe not religion or being so specific. So I love that that's also included in what you're talking about. You also talk about this term of meaningful Blackness, which I loved. And can you talk about reclaiming that? Reclaiming that meaningful Blackness. And what would that look like to help build your psychological fortitude?
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Yeah. I think so often we think, well first and foremost, that who we are started with chattel slavery, wherein there is a really very strong and potent culture that goes along with being African-American or being Black. However someone identifies. And it goes beyond clothing styles, though having a sense of style and soul is important. And it goes beyond whether or not someone has sweet potato pie for Thanksgiving. It's so much more than that. And so some of the things that folks have to do is reconnect with their own family history. So when there are older family members, talk to them about what it was like for them growing up. And what were their sources of strength? What did being Black mean to them? Some will talk about education. And not just traditional education, but education of people in the community who were doing meaningful things.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
And this is important because it offsets a lot of what's happening. And incidentally, I'm in Texas where we're fighting about the textbooks. And my son's... oh my goodness, his social studies book that I took a peek at during the pandemic because he was at the house and so was the book, and I was mortified. This was two years ago. By some of the lessons that were in the textbook. And so we have to be mindful of how we define who we are and that, importantly, we're passing it on to the next generation.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Because one of the things that we all know is that when people have a strong and positive sense. A positive sense of who we are, and that we define that for ourselves rather than having other folks define it, then that amplifies our overall psychological well being. But when we have individuals who maybe have some internalized racism, who have maybe bought into the idea that somehow approximating whiteness in this society, that that's better or somehow psychologically adaptive, it may create some financial... not it may. It'll create some financial success, but psychologically when you lose part of who you are, the consequences of that are meaningful, and it's worth attending to.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
And especially... I can't say it enough, especially for our young people, because incidentally I do wonder about some of the depression and anxiety and crisis we're seeing in our young people in the community, in part because of this sense of, "Well, I'm just American and you don't see me. I don't even know what it means to be African because I've never been to Africa." Those are interesting conversations that we need to be mindful of.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
Well, I think they're interesting conversations that we need to be having. I just wonder, many people put it off like it's the parents. And I really feel like it's the community that needs to be having these conversations and really looking after our future, which is the young people, because it's very alarming, the rates of depression and suicide in our young children. Young African-American children. Just so alarming that it's on the radar, but people are wondering where that's coming from. So I do wonder, with all of these different labels that we have, is that what it is? Because it almost seems like they know everything but Blackness, or what Blackness means. And it doesn't seem like we're having that conversation.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
And perhaps that's the important conversation to have, particularly with our young people. What about, mental health in general historically has a very Eurocentric, very white viewpoint. And it's told through a very white lens. So how would you help, I guess, mental health professionals of color or just specifically Black mental health professionals kind of juxtapose that whiteness with trying to really, again, reclaim the Blackness and help their clients?
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
That's an interesting perspective in part because... and what I didn't say earlier is that a lot of the work that I do, I subscribe to a cognitive behavioral perspective. And when you're helping clients and they have themselves encountered racism... and I think for some mental health professionals, if you default to CBT you may default to, well, how can we think about this differently? And that is absolutely not the place to begin. It can't be because for people of African descent and for people in marginalized communities who are living in this mainstream, cisgender society that is racist, homophobic... you name all the things. We have to be aware of how these realities affect people in their day-to-day lives. And microaggressions, where folks would say like, "Oh, it wasn't that bad." Or, "Maybe you just misunderstood." No. First and foremost, our clients have to be heard and they have to be understood, whatever the experience is.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
Yeah.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
I have to start there. But then after that has happened, what we have to do... and I say this to my trainees all the time. How do you connect that experience, if at all possible, or their reaction to the experience with what brought them to therapy? Because folks still came to therapy oftentimes not because, "Well, I have to deal with the racist." Dealing with racism, that's something that just happens. They don't make you go to therapy. The racist needs to be in therapy. That's the conversation. But if they're in therapy and they're dealing with overwhelming anxiety and depression, the two most commonly diagnosable challenges, how is their reaction to the situation escalating their anxiety and escalating their depression?
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
And so starting there and helping the person to maybe think about the situation or the circumstance in a way that saves them from experiencing anxiety or depression... well, not any anxiety, because we're all going to have some anxiety-
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
Yes.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Living in this world. But empowering them to be able to take control over their emotional reaction. Again, getting back to psychological fortitude. What do you need to be able to do to unfortunately withstand the continuous onslaught of discrimination and oppression that we're exposed to in our society?
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
That's a good point. I was going to ask specifically, what are some things that African-American mental health professionals or professionals of color, mental health professionals of color, what could they do to build that psychological fortitude? Because they too are experiencing microaggressions and racism and being oppressed by various systems. So is there anything you can think of maybe different that they should be doing differently as opposed to what you explained for clients?
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
I do think that for the professionals themselves, and there've been a lot of articles and reports and conversations about burnout, especially during the pandemic since the murder of George Floyd, where folks are themselves having to deal with that. But then also having clients and patients they're helping to manage. For them, to first be aware, because I think a lot of us who are in the helping profession, that's our default. I must help. But at the same time, at least recognizing, okay, my PF today is starting to slip a little bit.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
And so I need to first and foremost figure out, okay, what's going on for me? Because there could be different things for different people. Is it anger and rage about the environment around them? So how can they find ways to empower themselves? There's some science about this, that when people are themselves engaged in some social justice initiative... and it doesn't have to be huge. We all have to just start where we are. But when people are engaged in a social justice initiative, it can offset some of that anger and frustration and pain the individuals are feeling.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Also, connect with other mental health professionals. When we're in a collectivist society or a sub-society, if we want to call it that, that we don't have to fight on our own. That there are others. And I can say this very confidently. There are others who share in the struggle. But the key word there is share. So connecting with others. If a group doesn't exist at ACA or anywhere else, then create the group and find folks to be able to support and be able to provide different perspectives, and to just be able to say, "I hear you," but who are also empowered themselves to provide insight and maybe a different perspective that allows those folks to keep on pushing on. Because we need all of our counselors. We need all of our professionals on the frontline, as long as it makes sense psychologically for them.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
I love that you said, "As long as it makes sense psychologically," for you to be on the front lines, because I tell my students and my mentees all the time, "Do you want to be a boulder or do you want to be a pebble that causes the ripple? Because we need them both." So how are you going to do it? Because all of the work that we have to do, we need everybody. All hands on deck. But again, only if your psychological fortitude allows you to be there. So I love that part.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Exactly.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
What are some tools that you can think of or that you would suggest about overcoming stress for your psychological fortitude, and just wellness and self-care?
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Well, I'll give this... what is the word? I'll first say that they're simple. And they're simple on purpose, because when we have to do complicated things, guess what? We don't do them.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
We don't do them. Right.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
"Oh, I could go do that, but no." And so the things that I recommend starting out... one of the good things. One of the good things. I'll start there. Is in taking the shower at night or in the morning every day, every other day. I don't know when these things are happening. But in taking that shower, it can be a mini spa. So you don't have to spend $100 or whatever, or schedule the spa. Whatever. Presumably you have a shower wherever you reside, and be in the shower.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
And I know our audience is mental health professionals, so we know how to do mindfulness. But oftentimes we ourselves get in the shower and we start thinking about what we did not do, what we got to do, who got on our last nerve. All those things. Just be in the shower. Feel the warm water on your neck. If you can't do it at first, just say, "I'm going to give myself 30 seconds," and then try to increase the time. But that's something easy.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Add some of those scents. Make it smell nice. Get some eucalyptus. Make it wonderful. But that's one of the good things that we can add. A couple other good things that we can add is when there are those thoughts that we ruminate over, because it happens. What did that mean? Why didn't I get that done? When we refuse to give ourselves grace. Write it down. And even if it's write it down on a Starbucks napkin. It doesn't have to be a fancy journal or whatever. If it's a note in the phone, write the thing down. I know this for a fact, not because of scientific evidence, but maybe I could. Maybe I could. Anyway, but write it down because when we ruminate, we think we're fixing the thing.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Like, "If I just think about this for five more hours, I'm going to figure it out." But no. When we write things down, we release ourselves from them and then it also gives us an opportunity to try to problem-solve the thing. Solutions just pop into your head once you've removed the thing you're ruminating over. And there's a few. There's several that I talk about in the book. But one of the others that I will mention is writing down something that you have gratitude for. There's something about aggravation and frustration that doesn't seem to be able to coexist when you can acknowledge the things that are going well in your life. So again, I mentioned that they're simple because sometimes what we just need is a quick hack. Like, "I just need something right quick." I will say for me, one of my favorite ones is music, because I love music. I just do.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
And so I have several different playlists. One of them is my hip hop, just hard bass. I'm from Savannah, Georgia. I don't know if I mentioned. I'm a southerner.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
No.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
One of them is my inspirational, so it's got my Kirk Franklin. So whatever the mood calls for, I have gotten to a place where I don't have to overthink it. I just get my phone and press play and we go. Sometimes I go and sit in the car so I can close the door and not be interrupted. And everybody knows, don't bother her when she's in the car. And I play the music. And then it's just like... sometimes just it's two songs and I'm good. And these are easy things that anyone can do once you figure out what makes the most sense for you.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
I love what you gave because it's really something that you can fit into your wellness schedule. It's so easy to do. It's not like you're saying, "Hey, spend 30 minutes on it." It's literally two minutes that you can spend on just listening to something. Is there anything else that you want the audience to know to have takeaways in regards to wellness and alleviating stress and building your psychological fortitude and reclaiming your Blackness and using your spirituality resources?
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Yeah. I think a lot of it is really because this is an audience that has knowledge and has skills and that has insights. And if anyone is feeling like, "Okay, I need to figure out some fancy, sophisticated thing," just think about the things that you recommend to other people that you don't do for yourself. And we don't have to beat ourselves up about the things that we don't do for ourselves. I think it's important for each one of us to give ourselves some kindness and some grace and start wherever we are. And to be able to say, "What are my favorite things to recommend to other people? And can I try that for myself?" And if those things, they seem silly or whatever, just try it. I think life really is an experiment. We never know how things are going to go, but sometimes we just need to try something different. And we actually have to do it before we talk ourselves out of it.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
Out of it. Yeah.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
So I think that's it.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
The other thing that I wanted to really emphasize that you said was giving yourself grace. I think that's so important too, of knowing that tomorrow's another day. And if we can just give ourself grace, we can continue to move forward rather than sitting and ruminating over what didn't work. So thank you for that. I really appreciate that.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Absolutely.
Dr. Kimberly Frazier:
Well, thank you so much for being here and giving us your tools and things that we need so that we can be the best mental health professionals for our clients. I totally appreciate it. Thank you.
Dr. Rheeda Walker:
Thank you. And thank you, certainly, for the invitation.
Speaker 2:
Dr. Walker and Dr. Frazier, thank you so much for joining us for this important discussion in honor of Black History Month. We hope that today's conversation left you with a few tools to help you improve your psychological fortitude. Be sure to subscribe to The Voice of Counseling on Apple and Google Podcasts. And you can follow us on ACA on social media to get updates on all our new episodes. To join the ACA and to get exclusive access to all the number benefits, check out counseling.org.
Speaker 4:
ACA provides these podcasts solely for informational and educational purposes. Opinions expressed in these podcasts do not necessarily reflect the view of ACA. ACA is not responsible for the consequences of any decisions or actions taken in reliance upon or as a result of the information and resources provided in this program. This program is copyright 2023 by the American Counseling Association. All rights reserved.